In this episode I visit with Jackie Beck the creator of the Pay Off Debt App for the iPhone, iPad, and Android. Jackie created her app in her part-time with a roughly $1,500 investment towards the development. Now she is able to profit on average around $2,000 each month.
Jackie also blogs at MoneyCrush.com where she shares how to learn to love your financial life and reach your goals. Check out this post she did there about how she was able to put together the app without programming skills.
Listen to the Podcast
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Jackie Beck - Pay Off Debt iPhone App Creator
Here are some of the questions I ask Jackie:
- What made you want to make part-time money
- Why iPhone apps?
- Did you have any previous experience in making iPhone apps?
- How has this part-time business helped your financial situation?
- How do you go about making an app?
- How do you market your app to make it successful?
- How did you price it?
- Do you see this as a sustainable thing?
- How can others do what you do?
Full transcript can be viewed by clicking show
Philip Taylor: So, welcome, Jackie.
Jackie Beck: Thanks for having me.
Philip Taylor: First I’d like to know … I want to get into how you do these iPhone apps for sure. I know a lot of people are interested in that, but upfront I just have to always ask my guests, “What made you want to start making some part-time money?”
Jackie Beck: Well, I’m an entrepreneur, so I can’t really help myself. I can always find something to do with the extra money. Right now we are working on paying off our house, and I like to travel, so it is good to make extra money for that.
Philip Taylor: I see. Good deal. So, there was a little bit of a financial motivation it seems, but what else about making an iPhone app appealed to you? Did you go out there and research how to do it and then go through with the process?
Jackie Beck: Well, it kind of started when I decided to create it because I had gotten an iPhone, and I was browsing through the financial apps because I am interested in personal finance. I noticed that at the time there were not any apps like it. So, I had also noticed some people commenting on credit-related apps that they wished they could track their debt, so it seemed like it would be a good idea.
Philip Taylor: I see.
Jackie Beck: I didn’t actually know anything about doing iPhone programming, and I still don’t.
Philip Taylor: Okay. That’s good. So, obviously the entrepreneurial spirit was taking over here during those first early stages. You were realizing that you were not seeing it out there. You saw the open market for this obviously. At that point did you have the blog already, the personal finance blog at Money Crush?
Jackie Beck: Actually, I think I hadn’t started that one yet.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Okay. So, you were just looking at your iPhone and decided this is kind of an opening in the market here, I can maybe do something, or we need this. So, did you have a full-time job at the time?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, I did.
Philip Taylor: Okay. So, what made you say I have the free time to do this or I want to use my free time to do this?
Jackie Beck: Oh, I just get ideas, and I have to pursue them. I did recognize that I don’t have a lot of free time, and so normally when I have an idea, I want to learn all about it and do everything myself, but I decided this time was going to be different because I knew I didn’t have the time to learn how to code. I just wanted to leverage the skills I did have, and then I outsourced the coding.
Philip Taylor: I see. I see. So, take us back to when you initially thought of this idea. What year and month was that?
Jackie Beck: Oh, I think it’s been about 2 years, so it was probably January of maybe 2009.
Philip Taylor: Okay, so the 3G had just rolled out?
Jackie Beck: Yeah.
Philip Taylor: Okay. So, apps were still somewhat in an early stage.
Jackie Beck: Mm hmm.
Philip Taylor: Okay, now let’s talk about it taking it from the idea to actually putting it into place. What made you even think that you could do your own app or you could have your app created? What gave you that idea?
Jackie Beck: Well, I had known someone else who is a blogger who had created a real estate app, and they kind of did the same thing. They outsourced the coding. I had tested their app for them a little bit, you know reviewed it. And so, I asked them who did the coding for them and how did it work out, and he was really pleased with the process, so it seemed doable.
Philip Taylor: Mm hmm. I see. Okay. So, you had a friend (that’s good) who sort of gave you an insider’s view a little bit into the process. Did you generally end up following his same path in terms of how you sought out the developer to do the app and how you made it through the setup process?
Jackie Beck: Well, I asked him for referrals and a developer, and then I talked with the person that he worked with. Everything seemed good. They seemed like they really knew what they were doing. So, I also have done QA testing in the past, so I knew that I could do that part of it which really takes a lot of hours to do that. So, I just went ahead in, and I wrote the software specs for it, and I submitted it and got an estimate. It seemed not terrible or anything, so I just went ahead.
Philip Taylor: So what do you mean by QA spec?
Jackie Beck: Uh, software spec.
Philip Taylor: Or a QA test, I’m sorry.
Jackie Beck: QA testing is quality assurance where you basically go through and make sure there aren’t any bugs (that’s the ideal) or problems and that everything is working the way it is supposed to be.
Philip Taylor: I see. Now, do you have to have this experience to go out and do an app, or would you say that just sort of gave you a leg up over the competition?
Jackie Beck: It would just be a benefit to you. You can test your app without that experience because you would know what it is supposed to do. It probably helps to have that background. Otherwise, you could outsource that part too if you wanted.
Philip Taylor: I see. Okay, so you got some referrals for some developers. Were these just local developer friends of his? Were they someone through an online service? Where were these developers at?
Jackie Beck: You know, I am not actually sure how he came across them in the first place, but they are in Russia.
Philip Taylor: Okay.
Jackie Beck: Now they are on Elance.
Philip Taylor: I see.
Jackie Beck: They weren’t at the time though.
Philip Taylor: Oh really. I see. So, they just knew the software application or whatever that needed to be done to get this going? You just had the concept?
Jackie Beck: Mm hmm.
Philip Taylor: So what was the concept? Talk about the pay off debt app. I think I know, I think I get it, and most of our readers probably understand how paying off debt works, but maybe just talk about the concept that you had initially.
Jackie Beck: It is basically just a debt snowball, so you can input your debts, you know input the interest rate, amount, and your payment amount. You can also input an additional amount if you have extra to apply to your debt, and then you can organize it either using basically the Dave Ramsey method where you put it from the lowest balance to the highest, or you can organize it by interest rate. You can also organize it in custom order. I put that in there because sometimes people maybe owe a relative money, and they’re not being charged interest, but they really want to get that debt paid off.
Philip Taylor: An emotional debt, right?
Jackie Beck: Right.
Philip Taylor: Well, that’s good. That sounds like a great app, and it sounds like you were meeting a need at the time. It sounds like you still are. You got a great name, the Pay Off Debt App. Oh, so many questions to ask right now, but in terms of someone who doesn’t have a friend who has done this before, is there sort of a road map to creating an app out there that you could refer us to from the technical aspect of it?
Jackie Beck: From the coding aspect?
Philip Taylor: Not necessarily coding but how to go from idea to hiring the coder to testing it to submitting it to iTunes or whatever those steps are.
Jackie Beck: Well, basically you have to have a good idea in your mind of what you want it to do, and so I would probably start there with writing down exactly what you want it to accomplish and then take a step back and think, “Okay, so how would someone do this?” What would they tap on first, or what would they need to input to get this result? I guess if it was a game you would start with the point of the game – here’s how you play the game – and go through and figure out each step along the way. Probably initially it would be easier to write it up … I’m sorry I can’t think of the name right now.
Philip Taylor: Almost like a story board, right?
Jackie Beck: Yes. Yes. That’s it.
Philip Taylor: Sort of map it out in the different pages, the different levels of the application. So, you’ve got that written out, and then obviously your next step is to approach the developers, which you did.
Jackie Beck: Actually, next you would write it out in word format so that you describe everything. Describe as much as possible, what should happen on each screen, really spell it out, and also put what you don’t want to have happen if something could be confusing. Then you could go in search of basically someone to code it for you, and I would really talk with someone, make sure they have references and that you can see examples of their apps, see how they’ve done it, and see how the process went for other people.
Philip Taylor: Would you go to somewhere like Elance or oDesk?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, Elance is a good place to search for people.
Philip Taylor: Okay. So you have to pay these developers up front? What kind of investment is that up front? Obviously we are talking about wanting to make some money off this app. You’re not just doing this for free for folks out there. It sounds like there is an initial investment, so what type of investment are we talking about here?
Jackie Beck: Well, I actually do have a free version too. It doesn’t have as many features. Yes, there is an investment. It is going to depend on how complex your app is.
Philip Taylor: Sure.
Jackie Beck: The initial version of my app was not very complex at all, and that’s now the version that’s free on the iPhone. Every person has a different rate. They usually have an hourly rate. This particular app cost me about $1500 to get the first version of it.
Philip Taylor: Okay.
Jackie Beck: That’s just development. That’s not any testing or any graphics because I did that part.
Philip Taylor: I see.
Jackie Beck: Which probably shows – the graphics.
Philip Taylor: Oh really? Well, so obviously then there was some risk taking on your part here?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, basically it was a $1500 debt for me and a few hundred hours of work.
Philip Taylor: I see. Well, what gave you the confidence that this was worth pursuing, that you could see this through and do something with it?
Jackie Beck: I just go with my gut for the most part. I saw a few people complaining which made me feel like there was a need for it. I knew personally from having gotten out of debt that it is really motivating to be able to see your progress all the time. So, I just basically went with my gut.
Philip Taylor: Awesome! Okay, so we’ve got the developer doing their thing. You mentioned there are also graphics and QA testing. Are those the other 2 technical aspects?
Jackie Beck: Yeah.
Philip Taylor: Okay. And, you did those yourself? How did you do graphics?
Jackie Beck: Just using Photoshop.
Philip Taylor: Okay, so there are specific sized images you needed to create to fit into the app?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, Apple provides really good guidelines for exactly the sizes and everything that need to be.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Where can people find that guide from Apple?
Jackie Beck: You have to actually join their developer program which is $99, and they give a whole bunch of technical resources.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Awesome! Alright. Would you say using the developers from Russia was the least expensive route to go here, or did you choose them because they just had the technical know how?
Jackie Beck: Both.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Okay. I am just wondering how much more expensive a developer from the U.S. would have been in this case. Based on hourly rate, it would have been a little higher I guess?
Jackie Beck: Probably 2-4 times higher.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Good to know. Let’s see … so, we’ve got the technical aspects out of the way, and then you submit that to iTunes I assume, to Apple?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, once you’ve gotten all the kinks worked out and you’re satisfied with how it is, then you submit it to Apple. In this case, my developers uploaded it for me. Then, you wait until Apple either approves it or rejects it. My app was actually rejected, but they provide you feedback on what you can do before you resubmit it, so I followed their guidelines, and then the second time it was approved.
Philip Taylor: What was it?
Jackie Beck: Actually, I didn’t initially have enough of a warning. My app allows you to e-mail your debt information to yourself or to anyone, actually up to 4 people. So, I did have a warning in there that anyone could intercept this, something along those lines, but it wasn’t thorough enough, so I added more information.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Awesome! Alright, so you’ve got it in place. Apple’s got it. They like it. How do you begin to market this thing? Let me step back. You released a free version first, right?
Jackie Beck: No. I released the paid version first.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Oh, that’s right. It is the free one now. And so, how long was it before you made some sales, and how did you market this thing?
Jackie Beck: Well, when you first submit an app to Apple and it is approved, when it goes live in the app store, it goes in like the new section so people are more likely to find it, and I believe it is in there for 24 hours or possibly just until the end of the day whenever it goes live. I can’t remember which it is. So, it gets more attention that way. I did have sales right away. I really didn’t market it to begin with. I should have, but I am just now learning about marketing. Basically, people just found it in the app store by searching. They searched for keywords or the app title or the developer title if they knew those. I mentioned it to people I knew, and I did submit a few review requests to blogs that reviewed apps, so a couple of them did review it.
Philip Taylor: How did you price it?
Jackie Beck: Initially, it was $2.99. Basically, right before my app came out, another debt snowball app came out. I can’t remember if it was $2.99 also, but I basically just guessed and figured I could always change it later if it seemed to be impacting things. I knew I didn’t want to go the 99 cent route because it seems like people don’t value the apps as much, and also Apple does take 30%.
Philip Taylor: Right, and you had spent some money up front. How many sales did you make that first 24 hours?
Jackie Beck: I would say maybe 7 or 8.
Philip Taylor: Okay.
Jackie Beck: I know I made a little over 400 the first month.
Philip Taylor: Oh. Good deal.
Jackie Beck: So, I was very happy.
Philip Taylor: Yep. And real quick, from idea to getting in iTunes, how long was that period?
Jackie Beck: I believe I came up with the idea in January, and it was live in March. It was very fast.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Very cool. And, you said you made $400 in the first month, so obviously you were happy at that point. You were starting to see instant return on your investment.
Jackie Beck: I actually had about 400 sales in the first month.
Philip Taylor: Oh, 400 sales!
Jackie Beck: Yeah.
Philip Taylor: Alright! So you just about made up your developer cost in the first month?
Jackie Beck: Mm hmm.
Philip Taylor: So, how long was it before you were completely ahead in terms of upfront investment?
Jackie Beck: By the second month.
Philip Taylor: Okay. Perfect. Awesome! So, you were ecstatic at that point?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, I was really happy.
Philip Taylor: And then since that point, have you grown? I think I mentioned in the outset that you are averaging somewhere around $2000 each month. So, it sounds like you sort of reached a level here. Are you still growing? What’s the status of the sales?
Jackie Beck: Well, they’ve kind of been up and down. Typically I think app sales, at least in the app store for Apple, I think usually there is a big spike at the beginning, and then they drop off. Mine has sort of been very up and down, up and down the whole time. If I release new features, I usually see a spike. If there is more competition, I will see a drop. So, it just varies a lot, and it also varies where my app is in the store. It has pretty much always been in the top 50 financial apps, and it has gotten as high as #2.
Philip Taylor: Wow!
Jackie Beck: So, sales are higher when it is higher up in the list.
Philip Taylor: Okay. I’ve got to ask. How do you control that type of thing, or does Apple completely control that?
Jackie Beck: Nobody knows for sure, but it is pretty much based on a combination of downloads and how well your users rate your app.
Philip Taylor: I see. So, using the end user to help determine what is going to get pushed up. Okay. Fair enough. So, do you ask people to review the app, or how does that work?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, I do. If you have the app I will ask you too.
Philip Taylor: Okay.
Jackie Beck: There is also an option in my app that after you’ve been using it for a while, it will ask you if you want to review it or not.
Philip Taylor: I see. So, what’s the future of iPhone apps? I understand you’re also on iPad and the Android as well. What do you see as the future of your part-time business here?
Jackie Beck: I think it is going to be continually updating and improving. I certainly hope the iPhone is not going anywhere because I love mine, and I like having this business. But things always change, so you never know.
Philip Taylor: Yep. That’s awesome! So, how has it changed your life financially?
Jackie Beck: Oh, it’s been great really. We’re using some of that money to pay down our house. I can’t wait to get that completely paid off so I can really be debt free.
Philip Taylor: Awesome!
Jackie Beck: That’s awesome!
Philip Taylor: That’s great! You’re using the money from the Pay Off Debt App to pay down your own debt. That’s great!
Jackie Beck: Yes, along with other money.
Philip Taylor: Right. Sure. Sure. But hey, you’ll get there quicker this way.
Jackie Beck: That’s right.
Philip Taylor: And now it seems you spent the time setting it up. You had a little upfront cost or some fairly significant upfront cost. But this thing is paying off, and it is somewhat passive going forward, right?
Jackie Beck: It’s passive during the periods when I am not doing an update.
Philip Taylor: Okay.
Jackie Beck: So, every few months I update something on it. Right now I am working on an update. It’s a lot of extra hours then.
Philip Taylor: So, do you suggest that other people go out and do this?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, if you have something, an idea that you really believe in, I think it’s fun, and it’s certainly worth a shot.
Philip Taylor: So, Jackie, do you ever plan on diversifying and going into another app? I know a lot of developers might have 1 or 2 apps out there other than the initial one. Do you plan on diversifying?
Jackie Beck: Yeah, a lot of developers do have multiple apps. That is usually the more common approach. Not many people just have 1. I have thought about it, but I haven’t really found something that is personal finance related that I am that passionate about and that someone else isn’t already doing a really great job at. So, if I come up with something that would meet those requirements, then yeah, I would come up with another app.
Philip Taylor: I see. You don’t want to just make something just to make it?
Jackie Beck: Right.
Philip Taylor: Awesome! Well, anything that tripped you up along the way? Any mistakes you can share that might be lessons learned for others heading down your path?
Jackie Beck: Well, I know one thing – if I make another app, I will not do it in multiple languages.
Philip Taylor: Really?
Jackie Beck: At least not in the same binary because it has really not been cost effective. I made it that way because I wanted to sell in the U.S. and Canada, and so I thought it would be good because a lot of people speak English, French, and Spanish. From a time perspective, it’s basically every time I test the app I have to test 3 versions of the app, so it’s a lot of extra work.
Philip Taylor: I see. I see. Okay. Well awesome! Where can people download the app and find out more about you?
Jackie Beck: Well, you can go to the Pay Off Debt App website, and that is PayOffDebtApp.com. Or, you can obviously search iTunes for Pay Off Debt. It is also available on the Android market, but it is a different version than the iPhone version. You can also check out my blog at MoneyCrush.com.
Philip Taylor: Awesome! Jackie, thanks so much for being with me today, and good luck with the app in the future.
Jackie Beck: Thanks.
That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks so much for listening. You can find more episodes at ptmoney.com or on iTunes under the Part-Time Money Podcast. See you guys next week.
About Philip Taylor
Hi, I'm Philip Taylor. I'm a husband, father, blogger, and entrepreneur. I love learning to do more with my money and sharing it all here with you. Join in on the conversation and start improving your financial life today.